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See Things Differently podcast.

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Greetings and salutations

See Things Differently listeners.

Welcome to episode seven.

I am Rachael Ramos.

I am here with David Woodbridge,
and we are just super excited to bring you an episode full of low vision chat.

And of course, to do that
we had to bring in the veteran, the pro, the absolutely amazing Shelly Brisbin.

She is a veteran podcaster.

She is a radio producer.

She writes the iOS Access For All book.

She hosts Six Colors.

She has been on the Parallel podcast,
which is a tech podcast about accessibility.

She now hosts Lions, Towers and Shields.

So we are just super,
super jazzed to bring her on and we are just going to have a chat
about low vision as David and I are not.

So we are definitely not the pros
in this category, but good thing Shelly is so Shelly, welcome to the podcast
is our pleasure to have you here.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for that great introduction.
I really appreciate it.

Glad to be here.

Shelly,
you have been around the podcasting and radio producing space
and you have done a lot for a long time.

So I guess the first question
I want to start things off with is, have you always had low vision
and how has that affected your radio producing work
and your podcasting?

And then we'll jump into your book
writing process and the tech you use.

Sure. So I was born with low vision.

It's a blockage of the optic nerve,
and it means that I'm very nearsighted.

I'm also really photophobic.

And so, and, you know, all sorts of good stuff,
like, I'm, you know, two inches from the computer screen
when I'm using it.

And I really became able
to do the kind of work I do.

Back in the day,
it was writing and publication.

So instead of radio audio,
I'm much happier in the audio world.

But I became able to do the kind of work
I do because of graphical user interfaces
that made it possible for me.

Instead of having to like,
lay out a newspaper or something on a physical whiteboard like they did way
back in the day, I could use desktop publishing, and I had enough vision
to make that work, and I used Macintoshes.

And then just going forward,
I spent a lot of years sort of hacking my own accessibility
and figuring out, well, what low vision tools exist
and where none exist.

What is the thing that I can do that
makes it possible for me to use this computer?

And sometimes that was easier and harder-

Sometimes it was harder.

But today, I'm happy to say that there are a lot of both tools
that are specific, specific to the needs of somebody
with low vision that are made for them.

And then also tools that just
sort of accidentally kind of work for me.

And I think the thing that makes it possible for me to do what
I do, the way I do it, is just that I have always been
fairly technical, so I've always been able to find the solution that works for me
instead of having to go to somebody else.

Because when I've gone to other people
and had to say, you know, this thing doesn't work,
can we make it work better?

Those experiences haven't been as good
as the ones where I've said, okay, I've got a thing
I need to fix myself.

Well, the thing about low vision is that everybody's low
vision is a little bit different.

And I'm not saying
I mean that people who are totally blind have different experiences too, because
they have different levels of patience and different levels of technology
and all different levels of experience.

But if you're low vision, it's really hard to explain to somebody,
yes, I can see, but no, I can't see.

And people either assume you can see
a lot more or a lot less than you can.

And it's like that old Saturday Night
Live skit where the, the, the tech guy is like,
just move, move, get out the way.

I'll do it
because it is easier to move somebody out of the way and try
and fix my own problem than it is often time-

Not that I haven't asked-
like there have been times at jobs when I've asked for an accommodation, but I've known very specifically
what I needed.

Instead of saying
I can't read this screen, make it so I can read it, I've said, okay,
this is the application that I'm using.

This is the software version I'm using,
blah, blah blah.

Here's the specific thing I,
I need a, a space that's darker so there's not as much fluorescent
light over my head, or I need, headphones so that I can use a screen reader
or speech or something like that.

So knowing what you need
is kind of a big part of it.

All of us working with a visual disability
have to problem solving and know what needs we have,
especially if our vision has changed.

Has your vision
changed over the years, Shelly, and you've had to problem
solve differently?

That's a really good question,
because I, it's actually been a while since I've been to an appointment
and had it, calculated.

You know what? You know, 20 over
whatever it is.

So, I don't know,
my experience of my vision is

I don't think my close up
vision has changed much.

I think my distance vision
and my sensitivity to light has changed because I have some mobility challenges
that I didn't before.

I feel like I'm using a cane
more than I used to, which at my age is sort of an adjustment
and something I didn't really expect.

But I feel more confident and safer
when I use it.

As far as close-uUp vision
for reading and doing work,

I don't feel like it's changed much.

And which is kind of weird
because that's what I thought.

People with typical vision usually, you know,
once they get into their middle age, they're like,
oh yeah, my vision is really different and I'm wearing different glasses.

I feel I've changed reading glasses
prescriptions over the years, but it hasn't been like,
oh, this is really, really different.

Actually, there's one thing
I've always been in from a low vision point of view, is if you're low vision
and you're using a cane, do people get a bit confused that, well,
hang on a minute.

Don't I have blind people and blind people
use canes?

What is this?

What is kind of low vision business?

You must be pretending.

Well, that's sometimes you get that
and sometimes it's just-

So I will walk down a sidewalk
using my cane.

I will see somebody
well enough to avoid them.

That must really confuse them,
because here I am.

I'm coming straight at them and then I'm
going, oh, okay, I need to move.

And I usually I mean,
I don't know how they're looking at me.

I can't see their faces.

I may be getting weird, blurred looks,
but I can't worry about it because I can't fix it.

I, I'm just who I am and I have heard
people say that they have been and not me so much.

People accused of pretending.

And that must be really challenging
and I think I would fight.

I would, I would be obnoxious and
I would be like, no, I'm not pretending.

And I would
or I would just walk away and in disgust because I just like, that's it's
not up to me to explain myself to you.

It's not I'm not asking you for anything.

I'm not asking you to do anything
differently because of my low vision.

So just leave me alone.

I just thought for low vision,
people, it's almost like that black and white thing.

You know, if you've got sight, you've got "low vision",
or you're blind.

There's no gray area in between.

And I think it's actually really,
really hard for low vision people because to just assume too much.

Well, sometimes you have to explain
because sometimes you do need assistance.

The airport is a really good example
where a lot of airport signage

I can read pretty well, but sometimes
if I'm in a hurry, it's a challenge.

Or sometimes I can't read signage.

Also, a lot of people or a lot of airports
are being redesigned in such a way that there's
a lot more light coming through.

They're trying to put more natural light in the airport,
which is great visually, except for me.

It's terrible
because I often can't find or read a sign.

There are also gates where, you are fed into one large area and a number of gates
feed off of that area.

And I was in, was in Houston
where I had to

I went into a gate area
and then they said, okay, go down this escalator
and then turn here and turn here.

And I was like, you know what?

I need some assistance because you just
gave me too many directions.

I have a flight to catch.

Right. Well, yeah.

And so I've had to sort of come to terms
with how to ask for assistance and how to deal with the fact
that people are not going to give me the exact level of assistance
that I wish no more, no less.

I want to jump to kind of
the digital world that's always kind of, a cat and mouse game to, oh, man,
what website will encounter today where I've got to use three different
screen readers and five different browsers
until I accomplish the task, Shelly, what in terms of and we talk about Six
Colors, for instance.

But what tech do you use to
if if you do website development or just computer work
and how does that change?

Well, let me really quickly
say that Six Colors is not my website.

That is a Apple focused website, belongs
to Jason Snell, and I write for him.

And, you know, I guess it's kind of ironic
because if I write about accessibility,

I do have to write about color
and how annoying it is to me.

As far as Daily tech on the web, I have found I'm
a Mac person predominantly on, on the, on the computer side
and then an iPhone person.

So I'm in that Apple bubble, you know, but what I've found is that dark
mode has improved significantly in the past couple of versions of Mac OS,
because before then I used invert colors,

Smart Invert colors almost exclusively,
and now a combination of dark mode and a browser extension
that will fix websites that aren't dark mode friendly usually will do it,
but I also have the Invert Colors keyboard shortcut mapped so that at any moment,
if some app comes to me, that's blinding white.

I can quickly jump into invert colors
like so.

So it's just it's having the tools
right to hand and keyboard shortcuts are my friend. And then on iOS, again, dark mode and Smart Invert colors is, you know,
right there on some sort of keyboard shortcut or back tap or whatever
it is I'm using at the moment.

I use magnification some, not so much.

I guess I could go, I guess on the web
I usually at pretty standard text size, but then I will magnify specific websites
because I want to magnify just as much as I have to, and no more,
because the more you magnify, the more weird
the web page looks relative to the images and to the other graphical elements.

Because I read constantly,
both for work and for pleasure.

And so I almost always send something
I want to read if it's on the web to a read it
later service or to voice stream reader, and then I will use audio to read it.

And the great thing about voice, stream, reader or speech via any of those
apps that will give you speech is that you can put your phone in your pocket and go about your business
and be read to while you're doing your, you know, cooking in the kitchen
or cleaning the house or whatever it is.

And so I, I, I am not an interface speech user,
but I am definitely a content speech user.

What's been your experience
from a low vision point of view?

Defined apps particularly easy to use on iOS or iPad OS versus the Mac?

Generally speaking?

Yeah, that's a good way of putting it
that the apps, the layouts are simpler or that they're just fewer things
you can do on this on the screen based on the UI for the
the operating system, also on the Mac, a lot of times
you'll have somebody, a developer who has decided to do something
really pretty with his sidebar.

And so that makes it very low contrast
and hard to read.

So it's like, that's a really pretty app,
but I can't use it or I can't use it very well.

And so as a non Voiceover user on the Mac,
I don't really have any problems with the layout of apps.

Typically it's usually about color
contrast or sometimes the size of text.

Or if you have icons
that don't have text labels or don't give you the option
for text labels, it's like,

I don't know what that little image
is supposed to be.

And sometimes blowing it up really
big doesn't help.

Like emojis are the same way.

Like I only know emojis when I hover
over them or when I hear them spoken.

So I appreciate everyone's love of emojis,
but they're kind of a pain for me because I have to go some extra effort
to figure out what they mean.

As a low vision person, do you do you use keyboard commands more or trackpad commands more?

No, I don't even use trackpad
commands at all for what you don't.

And I tell you why that is.

It's because my laptop
is in clamshell mode and because I'm using a screen or,
you know, some sort of monitor.

I don't use the built in screen
that I was thinking about that because I have friends who talk about, oh, I haven't used a mouse in years,
I only use a trackpad.

And I had to think back.

I was like, why don't I use a trackpad?

I could go buy an external Magic
Trackpad. Why?

Because most of the time I'm
using a keyboard and I like it that way.

So much so that I have things
like Text Expander and Keyboard Maestro that give me abilities to do
keyboard shortcuts of all kinds.

And so yeah, I, I much prefer a keyboard.

And then sometimes
I have to find my mouse like, oh right.

I have to point it that that's annoying.

I do love that you use keyboard shortcuts.

And because a lot of folks who if they have some vision,
they're going to use it and they'll kind of hunt around on the screen until they find
what they need to click on and you just you saying that you use keyboard shortcuts
as a low vision person just makes me so happy
because I think everybody should.

So helpful.

My suggestion
to people that haven't done it or don't appreciate the value of them,
is find one tool that lets you use them, whether it's your operating system
like MacOS or Windows, or whether it's Text Expander,
something that works for you.

Find one tool and get really good at a few keyboard shortcuts
that do something really important to you.

And then after you've mastered those few
and your muscle memory has acquired those few, then go on to the next thing
on Windows or Mac or even iOS.

Do you have a favorite,
let's say, program or app that you find that really helps
you be productive?

For instance, I love, Sharp Keys.

It's available, I believe, just on
Windows, and it allows you to remap keys.

So if I have a keyboard
that doesn't have an insert key or it's not located in a place
I find convenient,

I simply just remap my grave accent key,
because who uses that?

If you do, that is amazing
and I'd love to hear from you.

[email protected]. But so that's,
I would say one of my favorite programs that helps me speed up my time on windows
and adding shortcuts to get things done.

But do you have one?

And then David, I'd love to hear from you
if you have one.

So I love Text Expander because,

I mean, I am a writer
and so I can write you a nice long email.

Unfortunately, I have to write the same
nice long email all the time.

And why should I have to do that?

Why can't I just type colon?

I have one colon CSS intro that is.

Hi, I would like to book you on my radio
show.

I don't know you and you don't know me.

This is what you need to know.
Please say yes.

And that's a whole that's a whole email
that is much more formal and fancy than that. In fact, so much
so that people will reply to it.

If I was, I'll be like,
did I say that in my email?

Oh yeah, I did
because Text Expander told me to.

And then I have actually,
I do podcast show notes the same way.

So I build podcast show notes in markdown
and then I use another little thing called search
link on the Mac that will actually fill in the links
that go.

So it's it's a movie podcast.

So I have all sorts of links to where you can stream the movie,
where you can buy the movie, stuff in the show notes
that we've talked about, that we link to, and I build that whole thing
in Text Expander, and then I fill it in with search link
so I never have to remember.

Okay.

Do we talk about,
do we show the streaming link before the, disk link or which,
you know, it's just I mean,

I guess it just makes it possible for me
to not to have to remember as much stuff.

Fantastic. What about you, David?

What is your kind of favorite,
productivity tool?

I'm a really bad person.

Just to ask me
what my favorite one is because I use the application
that best suits me at the time, which means I can switch between iOS,
the iPad version of the iOS version, the Mac version going use Safari,
I use Google,

I use Microsoft,
it's use Microsoft Word, you use text, it use notes
which, by the way, is now on the Apple

Watch in the current beta,
which I absolutely love particularly, it looks really weird now
because when I'm doing my karate,

I can literally stop in the middle of the,
to tatami mat and start reading my notes off my Apple
Watch now, with the kata I'm doing.

So it looks really weird.

So no.

So I tend to not use what was at the time.

So I'm gonna have to ask, how's
your book going, by the way, Shelley?

Because with I'm actually
going to do a new version because there's lots of stuff in
the new OS is coming out.

So I'm assuming you're going to do
a, a fairly major, not a rewrite,
but it's certainly a huge update.

Well, there will be an update.

And every year I say I'm going to come up
with a new way of doing it, because the book keeps getting really,
really big.

And I keep having to figure out, oh,
that's going to take me a really long time to update every word of it.

And so it's possible
that I will do an update that is just things that have changed,
or it's possible that I'll do a whole new book
that's based on the existing.

What I don't know.

I mean, it's actually
my perception of this year's updates is it's kind of a middle sized update
for Braille users.

For example, it's going to be a big update
because it things like real access for low vision people like me probably won't be that big an update
because, I mean, it's true, but, but there are things
that have not changed very much, and there are things
that have changed a lot.

And there are things
like the braille access that I have to teach myself because

I'm not a daily Braille user again, but
I have to be sort of credible about it.

So, I haven't figured out the structure
of it.

That is, but it is books.

It's officially books season now,
so my summers are devoted to figuring out what the books are going to look like.

I have to ask you,
as a live vision person, what do you feel of the transparency
mode in the new what's it called?

The liquid glass.

So yes. Yes.

So first of all, first of all,

I have become- Apple's design fetishism is kind of tedious,
I have to admit.

And I thought that
some of that would go away when.

When Jony Ive left the team.

But now it's back. And it's not.

To be honest,
liquid glass looks scarier from a low vision point of view than it
I have found it to be so far.

I mean, it just looks like,
oh my God, everything is see-through and you're going to maximize the number
of, you know, the levels and depth.

And I guess that's pretty-
whatever it's lost on me.

But in practice
it doesn't seem so drastic.

And I know that, you know, what people are saying
is that there are ways to disable it, and there are going to be ways
to get around it.

And I have feelings about how they did that and where
in what way they should have done it.

But so far, I'm guardedly optimistic.

Shelley, thank you so much
for sticking around with us and talking about how you use technology as a low
vision person for work and for play.

You have so much to contribute,
and if anybody wants to learn more or get in touch with you,
how can they do that?

Where can they find you?

If you want to find my book
about iOS accessibility, you can go to https://www.iosaccessbook.com/ . that book is iOS access for all,
and I do a new version for each major operating system update.

So, iOS 18 is out there for you now.

You can also find me on Mastodon
at [email protected] or on blue Sky.

I'm .

That's Shelly.brisbin.net

All right friends welcome to the Hot Topic segment.

We always have fun with this one.

And in this little snapshot of time we are going to chat about.

And what do you think is better using a device like the iPhone that has built in low vision
or magnification features, or using a standalone device like those
that we make at HumanWare, or those that you might encounter on Windows or the Mac,
or even Prodigi for Windows.

What do you think is better,
or does it depend on the situation?

And again, we have the pro Shelly Brisbin
here to chat about her experiences.

So Shelley, based on your experiences
and what you've seen out in the wild, what do you think is better?

I don't know if I want to say better
or best or what do you maybe use most?

Is it an iOS device with low vision built in features, or do you find yourself
reaching for a standalone device?

I use the iOS device
mostly because it's one device there.

Probably already have it in my hand.

You know, we don't put down our phones,
we just carry it around all the time.

It's near at hand.

It's also usually smaller, so and less expensive too, but
but mostly smaller and already in my hand.

And sometimes I look longingly at devices
that are purpose built for things like accessibility,
especially for low vision.

Because I remember being a kid
and really wanting a CCTV so badly, and it was either price or space
in my room.

I can't remember why I didn't have one
at that time, and I got a job at one point where I did get a CCTV as an accommodation
and I needed it and it was great.

I loved it and I wanted to take it with me
when I left and it didn't get to.

But what's great now is that there are
so many devices that are based on tablets or connection to your own device,
and you can, you know, you've have.

I've added features.

You can look at the blackboard across the
whiteboard, across the room blackboard.

That's how old I am.

Or you can or you can, you know,
look at, craft projects or something that's really tiny that maybe
even your iPhone camera isn't suited for.

So I think it really depends
on what you're doing. To me, those, purpose
built devices still feel kind of aspirational to me, in the sense
that I like the flexibility.

I like that they they're there
for what I want to use them for.

I'm not having to do the workarounds
and the hacks to to make them, you know, read very tiny type or show me.

I used to be a coin collector.

And so I would look at coins under a
CCTV camera.

It was so cool.

But I, you know, for my own use, I'm
probably using the phone 95% of the time.

I mean, I find and again,
it comes back to my, you know, my personal life about using the tool
that's most appropriate.

So for me, it's yes, you,
got the joy of using your own smartphone to do what you do, like,
particularly for camera support, you know, in this day of AI
and everything else going on, that's cool.

But then, like I said,
Shelley then you've got the more dedicated hardware that does more specific things,
and they are very good for for distance viewing of the whiteboard,
for looking at chemical reactions in a, in a beaker
or that sort of general stuff.

So again, to me it's what you want.

But in a now in our previous section,
we talked about or sort of slightly touched on the
the new operating systems coming out.

And for me, the interesting one is
where you'll be able to use a webcam
or an external camera, i.e. you know, iPhone or something else, to
then use it as a classic, a TV, or as we now probably call it, and I can't
I hate the term video magnifier.

I still like the word classic TV.

To look at distance viewing
and that sort of cool stuff too.

So I just think, as people say to me,
you know, should I buy an external portable video
magnifier?

Should I buy a hybrid one
that's both portable and desktop?

Should I buy a desktop?

I said, well, look, it really depends on
on what you want to do.

It also depends on whether you want
hands free.

So, you know, do
we even start talking about magnification type glasses
or do we talk about smart, you know, text to speech or speech
to text glasses.

Do we talk about laptops, desktops?

Do we talk about smartphone tablets,
everything else.

So to me it's here's your toolbox.

Let's look at the task
that you want to perform.

And let's choose
the most appropriate one for you.

I just really think now in this day
and age, the, what's the word for it?

The difference between assistive
technology and mainstream is becoming so close together now that
they almost integrate with each other.

So I guess that's why
I'm looking forward to, you know, having more of this hybrid
type stuff to do with your, in this case, the Mac OS coming out.

We've got Prodigi for Windows using the, you know, the windows
or an external camera.

But we've still got the standalone ones
because the other device, some people even don't want to use a smartphone
or they don't want to use a computer.

You say, okay, here, here's a device
you can hold in your hand.

You don't have to worry about keyboard
commands, mouse commands, or anything else.

You turn it on, you point.

You look through the viewfinder.

You can take a snapshot if you want to
check the price on something, etc. etc. so again, it comes really back to that thing that you know,
what do people want to use it for?

So I just think it's great
that we still have standalone products around,
but we also have the fact that mainstream is really indeed
catching up to what we need to use.

It can depend on the kind of user too, because I got my mom a what are we calling
video magnifiers these days?

When she because she was somebody
she had an iPad, but she had gotten to the point where she really had trouble reading it,
and I couldn't show.

I couldn't teach her
how to use it to turn that, flip it over so that she could use the camera
to magnify things.

It was just
she was too old and too set in her ways.

And I'm not saying that
derisively at all.

She was just not going to be suited
to that.

So in so in addition to giving her
a device that was purpose built, the fact that she was losing her vision,
I also knew that if she called support, she would get somebody who understood her
and her use case and not somebody that goes, well,
you take the thing and you pull down the hamburger
menu and blah, blah, blah, because otherwise that's going to be me
doing that tech support.

So, so the, the extra sort of money
and time we spent finding the right device for her was actually a means of
making me feel better about her use case.

And since I am who I am,
I could help her in tech support.

That's not always the case,
because a lot of people are going to have an older relative
who might need a purpose built device like that,
and they don't know how to use it because they're just regular people,
you know, living their lives.

So how's that for a non-answer?

Rachel?

There isn't any.

There isn't any best or not best device.

There isn't.

And that's just because,
you know, we're all different.

I mean, I still use a dedicated solution
to scan my mail, and some people might think, man, you're silly,
you have apps on your phone that'll do it.

Nice.

Yeah, but sometimes it's nice to just lay
a piece of paper on my flatbed scanner.

Hit a button, and within a very short
amount of time, I, you know,

I'm able to read through the mail
or take down a phone number.

These dedicated solutions
know if they're marketing to blind folks.

We're probably going to take a picture
upside down.

So let's just automatically reorient
for them.

So that's okay
I think I think it's great that we have both options standalone
and things that are built into our phone.

And I end up using both
just depending on what I'm doing.

So I know it's always fun
to chat about it, especially from someone who is low vision
and uses the, magnification features.

Obviously,
way more than David and I ever would.

And we are just so,
so happy that you're able to join us.

We're excited
for your book in the fall. Right.

Is that when it releases?

Because it all should come
back to the book. I hope so.

Yeah.

I, as soon as I possibly can, I every year
I say to myself, I'm going to get started
really, really early and we're going to get it out
as soon after the release as possible.

Last year, there were some challenges
in my personal and professional life that made that a little harder to do,
but this year I'm getting started as soon as I can.

So hopefully in, you know, October,
early November or something like that's what I'm targeting right now.

Oh, and shameless plug for your book.

You can read this book on the Victor
Stream, can't you?

Yes you can.

It's funny you should mention that.

I had to get verification of that fact
because I am not a Stream owner, and every time I get an email
from somebody who wants to read it on the Victor

Reader stream, which is a lot of people
actually, I'm like, yeah, I think so.

And so I, I had to go to the source
and I had to find out.

And yes, in fact, you can that
I learned a few things about the Stream in that process,
which was only good, good stuff.

So everybody get Shelley's book.

Read it on our Victor Stream.

If you need assistance, contact us and we will
we will get you, up and running with that.

So thank you guys both so much.

Stick around with us.

We'll be back soon with everyone's
favorite, the cringe segment that's coming up right after this.

Welcome, everybody to the cringe segment
of this month's podcast.

We always enjoy kicking around ideas
of what we're going to talk about.

That just makes you go, or cringe, or maybe both.

And this month, David Woodbridge
and I are here to regale you of some lovely experiences
we've had in the recent past.

So I'm going to jump right in here.

I'm going to talk about a recent
shopping experience that I had, and David is going to talk about, about, well,
you're just going to have to stay tuned to find out what David's going to talk about. Indeed.

So some things I'm sure that we all have
experienced is you are maybe in a convenience store
or a food mart, or you're purchasing
something, you go to the counter and you're all ready to pay.

You have to card out.

And then there's this awkward interaction
that ensues.

Recently
I took my card out to pay for some lunch that I was having with some family members
who were visiting and

I'm never quite sure where the machine is, because sometimes,
it can be behind the counter.

Sometimes it's to your left, it's
to your right, and then when I eventually find the machine, you know,
they have these tap to pay terminals here, at least in the US,
where you can tap your card.

It's very convenient.

You don't have to insert it anymore, but they've changed the location
of the tap to pay feature.

Sometimes it's on the left in the machine,
sometimes it's on the top of the screen, sometimes it's in the middle.
Sometimes you have to flip your card over and it is just a big deal.

And so that's what happened to me
recently, was

I was looking around for the machine,
trying to find where to tap, but it's just one of those situations
that's just kind of like, you know, this could go, a lot better.

It also doesn't feel good
when you're sort of fumbling around.

Exactly.

I'm fumbling and stumbling,
and then I hear the happy beep when the money is taken.

And that's the easy part.
It's almost too quick.

It's over in an instant.

So that was my lovely cringe experiences trying to find the card machine
when you are out and about shopping.

And David has a similar experience
when he was out and about. I do, yeah, I don't know why people just can't
communicate with people and go, can I assist you?

Like if you've got a guide dog or a white
cane, you know, would you like help?

Quite finding the device for example,
because with my example.

So I went to the theater
to watch an audio described
How To Train Your Dragon here in Australia.

And so I took my son with me.

We walked up to the counter
and I said, the lady behind the counter, can I have an audio describe unit
so I can enjoy the movie?

So that was fun.

So as soon as I said it, she of course
rocked off, nicked off to get the device.

Now I didn't know that. So I said,

I said, well, I basically said, you know,
can you go and get it?

And my son said, well, she's already gone
Dad and went, okay, that's strike one.

And so it was a bit quiet
there for a moment, and I kept being more and more quiet.

I thought, I'll just kind of
say something and go,

I asked my son.

I said, is she back?

And he went,
oh yeah, she just dropped it off and put it in front of me,
you know, went, okay, so strike two.

The lady couldn't have said,
here's your device or my son couldn't have said that she's just dropped it off
in front of you.

So I just I'm sort of really disappointed
sometimes that we've gone so far in some areas, you know, like know it's amazing how thing how many things are
audio described these days.

And, you know, websites
sort of continue to struggle.

But overall I guess it's getting gradually
a little bit better.

There's talking stuff on trains now
and all that sort of really cool stuff.

But just when it comes to
some of the basic communication with, quote, customer service people, it's still that's a lot to be desired.

And look, it wouldn't have taken much.

I mean, obviously I was a blind
person with a white cane.

And there wouldn't be much to say.

You know,
I'm just going to get the device.

This person can't see me walking away.

And number two, when I come back. Hi.

I'm back.

Here's your device.

And actually, you know, I could then could have her up my hand
and she could have put it in my hand rather than just all that awkward stuff
at the beginning.

And awkward stuff at the end. So,

Strike three.

When I got back to the actual desk,
I did point out to the and it wasn't the same person because I could tell
that it was a, you know, a different lady.

But I said no, next time, perhaps when you have a blond
customer coming in, ask for an ID device.

Could you just
please tell the person what you're doing as far as leaving the counter and going
and the coming back, let them know what you do.

And I said, geez,
that's a really great idea.

We'll pass it on to other staff.

And I thought,
that should have been something that was already covered in
basic communication type stuff, guys.

So yeah, that was my experience.
So great movie.

But again,
disappointed by customer service.

I guess my final question
was after all of that, because I've had the experience,
you get the device, you're all excited,
you go in there and it's either staticky or you can't hear it
or the description doesn't work.

Did the description work?

It did, but mind you, I was
I was about 95% primed for not to work.

The customer thing sort of left
a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth, but because it was such an enjoyable movie
and the idea actually worked, it was brilliant.

So sort of cancel each other out
a little bit.

That is excellent.

You can also order
sort of certain type of beverages as well if you want to,
while you're also watching the movie.

So perhaps with the F1,
I might be ordering a particular beverage while I'm enjoying the movie with Chase, so I'll probably put that back on
in the next episode.

So standby. This won't be a cringe moment.

It'll be a it'll be a happy cringe moment
when I let people know that I've spilt my beverage
in my ID devices and all that.

You know, hopefully when you order the beverage
from your seat, let's hope if it's a touch screen
that it's accessible, right, we have that.

Maybe we should start a victory
segment too.

We talk about cringe, just to be silly, but
I wonder and we'd love to hear from you.

You guys want to tell us your successful
moments, your triumphs.

That would be that would be lots of fun.

That's a good spontaneous idea.

I know she had this on the podcast.

So but if you have spontaneous ideas
that you would like to tell us, your story is your triumphs,
maybe your cringe moments.

We would love to hear from you.

[email protected] .

[email protected] talk to us.

Let us know what is going on with you.

And as Peter used to say, rock
n roll, rock n roll, rock on, game on.

Let's go.

Welcome everyone to the

Partner Corners
segment for this month's podcast.

And this is my first partner corner.

And I couldn't have asked
for a better partner to come on and tell us all about the amazing work
they do.

I have the absolute honor and pleasure
to be with Kim Nova from Mystic Access, and many of you will know Kim and Chris
for their company and what they do in terms of access technology,
but they do so much more than just teach.

They partner with organizations
like HumanWare and produce many audio tutorials, and
they just do an absolutely incredible job.

And so without further talking from from me on my side, Kim,
welcome to the podcast first. Thanks, Rachel.

So great to have you here
and tell us a little bit for those who may not be familiar,
how you got started with Mystic Access and then how you got involved with
HumanWare in helping produce the absolutely wonderful tutorials
that you do for us in our learning.

Thanks, Rachel, I appreciate that so much.

Well, as Rachel said, I'm Kim Nova,
I'm director of products development with Mystic Access,
and it's a two person company.

It's just myself and my husband, Chris
and I actually joined in 2015.

Cannot believe it has been ten years now
since that happened.

And ironically enough,
the first product we ever did together for the two of us was a Victor
Reader Stream 2 tutorial.

So I kind of have a HumanWare in my DNA
for a long time in terms of audio recordings, and the reason that we do
audio recordings is we're old and we herald back to a time
when a lot of companies included audio as part of their documentation
or their product, whatever it was that they were producing
and releasing at the time.

Many, many items had audio documentation
of some sort, usually on a cassette or six cassettes
or whatever it happened to be at the time.

And we thought back to those days
of nostalgia and realized how much that audio assisted us
as totally blind consumers in learning
how to use the products in question.

And we thought, you know,
we should bring that back.

And we started thinking about it
and ultimately decided what better way to begin
than with a Daisy player that at the time, was pretty much the top
of the game and the top of the heap for products at the time in that category,
which was the Victor Reader Stream 2.

So that was my beginning with
Mystic Access and the audio that we do.

Audio is kind of our bread and butter.

We do do other things.

As you said,
we teach access technology both in classes and other paid events
that happen from time to time.

We have a bi-weekly podcast,
but audio is definitely our mainstay and when HumanWare found out about
our Victor Reader Stream tutorial, we then began collaborating on multiple products
with HumanWare.

And for HumanWare.

So we've done things on the Braillenote
series.

So two generations of BrailleNote
Touch and the Touch Plus various brailliant displays as well
all kinds of things.

The StellarTrek
and now the Stream 3.

So it has been a long line of documentation that we have been
so pleased to work with HumanWare.

We're on creating to just help enhance
the products that they're putting out by giving people,
hopefully, really stress free instruction and a better understanding
of how products work and allow them to follow along with us
as we teach these products from the foundational concepts
all the way up to more advanced concepts.

So that is a very long way
of answering your question, but I hope it does help in understanding a little bit
about who we are and what we do.

And we offer a lot of different audio,
but we have a very special relationship with HumanWare.

And we are, because we've been working with you guys
for so long now, almost ten years.

So it's crazy.

It's incredible.

We are so, so lucky to have you guys producing
the professional tutorials that you do.

And if we can take a look
behind the scenes, I'm curious.

You guys produce really, really
comprehensive tutorials which are great for helping folks come to learn their technology
from beginning to advanced.

How do you prepare those tutorials?

Do you take notes in Braille?
Do you emboss them?

Do you use a refreshablle

Braille product?

Just because braille
and audio are so linked.

And I know when I produce a tutorial,
sometimes it's nice to have some notes

I can refer to, so I'd love to know what.

What is kind of your process
for producing tutorials?

Without a doubt,
I could not produce a tutorial without some kind of outline,
and they're usually very, very extensive.

Oftentimes I will come up
with a full table of contents first, and then I'll spend days
and sometimes weeks wondering about the order
and try to figure that out and how I'm going to put it together
and how it's going to get created.

And I really must have a framework
for myself in order to start.

And I kind of think of it
from the place of a consumer, because I'm not just the person
who's teaching this stuff, I use it all.

So I want to think, you know, what's the easiest way
for the majority of people to learn this?

How can I be most helpful
in creating a product that will be really accessible
to the majority of people?

And sometimes that means
starting back with the very, very basics.

What is it?
Why do I care? What do I want it?

And then that gets people in the door.

So even if they haven't purchased
something, that'll give them an idea of, hey, maybe this could work for me,
or if they're brand new to it, maybe it'll help take some of the intimidation out of, oh,
so I can do this, this and this.

And now I have this hopefully friendly voice on the other end
that can assist me in doing exactly that.

So, yes, outline
critical to me to make that happen.

Braille display critical
I use my brilliant BI40x to create my outlines and often sit there
and as I said, play with those for a while
to get those exactly as I want.

Because the recording, of course,
is only one part of this entire equation.

There's a ton of research that goes into the back end as well, way
before the recording starts.

And then as you know,
as someone who does recordings as well, the editing is the most massive
undertaking, usually of the entire thing, because for every hour of recording,
I might do three hours of editing because you mess up
and you say things over it.

Yes, absolutely.

It's some things
you just do not want in the recording.

So, you know,
I have to watch out about that and make sure that everything
is really professionally produced.

I don't want any cookie cutter.
I don't want any filler.

And we want to make sure
that everything that we put out is both comprehensive
but also concise for the listener.

So yeah, there's a huge portion of this
that goes on behind the scenes that is way more than just the recording that the user
will ultimately end up seeing.

There's a whole process.

Hundreds of hours
usually goes into every product.

The process that you described
is very similar to what I use as well.

But to produce a final product
that you could be proud of and that's really easy to follow.

It is it is so worth it.

And you guys do an excellent job.

And speaking of Braille
and all those lovely things, since we've just passed a convention
and on the previous episode we're talking about Braille Challenge,
just for fun.

Have you ever been involved in any type
of Braille challenge or braille contest?

I have not,
I have been involved in essay contests, but never one where Braille is
how that is facilitated.

So I've never done that.

I would love to do that.
That would be so fun for me.

As somebody who's been reading Braille since I was a toddler,
I would definitely enjoy that.

I love Braille, it is a huge medium of communication for me,
so I would absolutely love to do something like that.

Well, we keep talking about
bringing an adult Braille challenge back.

So, you know, tell your friends,
we need to get this going because I think that would
just be so much fun to just, you know, in a friendly, competitive way,
put our skills to the test.

Because I think the skills change
over time and we use Braille differently since when we were in school than
now as adults.

Most definitely.

I mean, we do so much leisure reading now.

And you know, we do notes for work and try
and keep those concise for ourselves.

And you're right, the skills change, the challenges
change in how we're going to use it.

And I think the most important thing
for me is just having the ability
now with a Braille display, to be able to write something, have it appear on that
display, have it in braille.

Because when I was a kid, you know,

I didn't get my first braille
display till I was 18.

So I didn't have that.

And knowing now that, you know,
that is accessible to me and easy to grab and easy to use on a display,
that's awesome.

I mean, of course there's nothing that's
going to replace that Perkins Brailler.

It has its special place
in all of our hearts, I'm sure, but being able to use it just any time
accessible easily is awesome.

So I'm up for any Braille challenge.

Rachel, hit me up
any time for Braille challenge.

I love it, I love it.

We'll have to make this happen.

And oh my goodness, this
this segment is just flying by.

So as we as we wrap up
and as a new it would can you tell folks again in case they
they don't know where can they find you
and what's the best way to get in touch?

And if maybe someone's listening,
who has an idea for a product and they say, you know what I would love?

Kim and Chris may produce a tutorial
or they have a client in mind.

I'd really love to have Kim and Chris
teach someone how to use a product.

How can they get in touch with you
and what's your process for that?

You can absolutely get in touch with us.

Our main website is Mysticaccess.com and I'll spell that it's mysticaccess.com
that'll get you to our main site.

I definitely recommend those of you who are brand
new to us to check out our podcast.

It comes out every other Tuesday
and that is at MysticAccesspodcast.com.

Super easy.

Or you can ask any of your favorite voice
assistants, or use any of your favorite podcasters
to play the Mystic Access podcast.

We're really super easy to find.

If you want to get in touch with us,
you want to talk to us, you're welcome to email us.
And that's simple too.

It's [email protected],
and we're always looking for ideas for classes or what
you'd like to see in a future product.

Something like that.
We would love to hear about that from you.

Or just say hi,
you know, if you like the podcast, we always love hearing that as well.

So definitely get in touch with us.

And also remember that
we have tons of free downloads available.

If you're brand new to us, you
maybe you've listened to the podcast, you want to listen to something else
before you commit to perhaps looking at products.

Or maybe there's a purchase
you want to make, but you can't really afford it right now.

When you're waiting, check out our free downloads
that's at MysticAccessdownloads.com, and you will find literally hundreds
of hours of free goodies to tide you over in case you want to buy that product.

So we're kind of everywhere, and here welcome to check us out
however works best for you.

Thanks a bunch Kim for coming on again.

This is Kim and Chris with Mystic Access
and go check them out.

They are absolutely fantastic
and we are so lucky to be their partners.

So thanks a bunch Kim. Appreciate you.

My pleasure. Rachel.
Thank you for having me.

Hi, it's David here, and welcome to a short demo of using the calculator on the Brailliant

BI20x or BI40x bar display, of course, from HumanWare

All right.

So I'm currently sitting
at the main menu of my brilliant BI40x.

I'm going to go to the calculator by pressing a C
for Calculator.

And I'm going to press the enter key
which is the dot 8.

Now if it's the first time you've gone into the calculator
since you've first turned it on, then it will remind you
that you've got to use Computer braille.

If it's the second session
since you've turned it on, it reminds you about Computer braille.

And remember,
Computer braille is mainly two things.

There is no number sign
followed by two J for the numbers, and the numbers a to j or 1 to 0, you drop them down in the actual
browse them to do the number.

So they're all sort of lowercase ABCD.

So for example no number sign.

And then A rather than being dot
one would be two two rather than being one and two and b would be dots
two and three i.e. lowercase b etc..

And then of course your mathematical
symbols are using computer braille.

So I'm kind of sitting at the calculator,
I've got the cursor on the display.

And I want to remind myself
how to actually use the calculator.

So I'm going to press space
and M for context menu.

And of course M being dots
one three and four. Equals.

So that's the equals.

That's when you press the press enter
to get the result.

I'm just going to press the spacebar
to go through each of these options.

So space clear space plus dots 356 okay.

Space and dots 356 plus 346 plus is dots 346 minus dots 36, minus is dots
three and six.

Multiply dots 16.

Multiply is dots one and six.

Divide dots 34.

Divide is dots three and four all the result backspace
plus y copy result is the backspace key dot seven
plus y one, three, four, five and six.

Power backspace plus dots 45 power.

And I'm not going to repeat the rest of these.

But basically power is space
plus dots four and five.

When I press the spacebar just
to read them out for the rest of them.

Square root space plus dots 345 by space plus y Euler symbol.

That was Euler symbol eight.

Euler symbol.

Factorial space plus dots 2,346.

Dots 146.

Back. Okay.

And of course, if I press spacebar again
equals I'm back to the top of the menu.

All right.

I'm going to press space and E to exit.

So space and one and five.

And I'm back to the blank braille display of course
with the cursor on the left hand side.

So let's just do an add an A minus
just for this demo.

So 1010.

So of course that was dot two for one.

And dots two five and six for zero plus which is dots one three and six plus.

And then I'll do one zero again one zero and press it. Now.

And the first time I press enter it's
not going to say anything because I can type in another sum
if I want.

At the moment I'm gonna press enter again. 20 now it said 20, which is what I wanted.

All right.

So ten plus ten, funnily enough equals 20.

I'm going to clear that
with space three, five and six.

And I
won't say anything once I clear anything.

All right. So let's do a minus.

So I'm going to let's see 61 minus a dots three and six dash.

And then I am going to put in eight.

Eight.

And that hit enter 53 which is 53.

Cool and clear it again.

And I'm back to a clear slate as so to speak on my braille display.

Let me just show you one final example, just to remind you
that you can just do more than one sum.

So I am going to put in five plus plus five and I press enter 10.

I'm going to do plus seven, seven, 17 plus which is 17 minus eight, eight, nine and so on.

So in the clear that three, five
and six the spacebar

I'm going to press the home button,
the front of the display terminal.

And I'm back to the main menu
on terminal mode ready to go again
with a calculator or another application.

All right everybody, welcome to the upcoming
show segment.

Interestingly enough for July August, we
don't happen to have any upcoming shows.

The convention season in North America
has just concluded, and August is still summer
in this part of the world.

And of course, winter
in other parts of the world.

So school
year has not yet kicked off here, and therefore our show presentations
will be slowing down a little bit.

But you can always check out our website
at www.humanware.com to see what we have going on
and come visit us any time.

Also keep an ear out and an eye out.

We will be back on the road
in end of August and September as the school year
starts up again.

So definitely look for us out
and about in a city or town or state or country near you.

We hope you have a great summer slash winter and we will talk to you soon.

If you have comments or suggestions,
we'd love to hear from you.

Please send them to
[email protected]

That's [email protected]

Thanks so much for listening to See Things
Differently.

We'll see you next month.